Messages From ldsig

 


----------------------------

#7749 Jan 23, 2000

Being a fan of car cards for 35 years, I have read a lot of articles on

them over that time. One area that seems to be lacking though is how the

daily car cards are generated. Do you pick one, five....ten? Everybody

seems to leave this alone.

In real life industries generate the carloadings. I can't remember seeing

this happen in any of the articles I have seen. Is letting the car cards

generate their own movements enough? I tend to feel that some method must

be developed to generate car movements.

What methods do others use to get the cars moving? Random picking? traffic

cards? dart boards?

Peter Bowers To Reply: click on

Owen Sound, Ont. Canada mailto:ve3gwx@...



----------------------------

#7757 Jan 25, 2000

Peter,

At 03:39 AM 1/23/2000 0000, PBowers wrote: >One area that seems to be lacking though is how the

>daily car cards are generated. Do you pick one, five....ten? Everybody

>seems to leave this alone.

>

>In real life industries generate the carloadings. I can't remember seeing

>this happen in any of the articles I have seen. Is letting the car cards

>generate their own movements enough? I tend to feel that some method must

>be developed to generate car movements.

In my mind, there are a couple of ways to approach this. On Rick Fortin's

SW&SF, we use the basic 4-cycle car-card destinations as the main driver.

When we made up the car cards, we decided how many cars we wanted at each

siding for each session. Since there are 4 cycles, we multiplied this

number by four, then reduced it by one or two just to make sure we would

avoid chronic overcrowding at a particular spot. Then as we wrote up

waybills, we kept adding that destination until we had that number (tick

marks on a piece of paper helped me keep track of what destinations had

been assigned -- all pretty low-tech). Empty car movements to an industry

to be loaded are just another of the 4-cycles.

Thus, on average, about the right number of cars cards contain waybills to

route traffic to that siding each session. This happens "automatically", as

the car cards are cycled. (We only cycle waybills between sessions ... the

operating crews never have to touch a waybill.)

This seems to work fine for us. Occasionally the laws of statistics and

chaos theory create an overload or scarcity of cars for a particular

location, but that's not unlike what the real railroad might find. The

set-up for each session finds cars in staging with "on-layout"

destinations, cars in the classification yard awaiting delivery to specific

industries, and cars at those industries bound (mainly) for off-layout

destinations.

Over time as we add cars, we adjust the mix of loadings going to particular

industries with movements "off" the layout to staging to keep things in

balance.

On Rick's layout, we leave the 4-cycle waybill with the car card all the

time. For variety, operating challenge, or to create specific movements, we

sometimes swap waybills around between car cards or add a temporary waybill

in front of the regular waybill (so that yellow UP box doesn't show up at

McCluskey every fourth session, for example). In practice, our crews work

different jobs every session and with about 200-250 cars moving each

session, nobody ever seems to notice any repetition except me (or if they

do, they don't mention it for fear that I'll delegate the set-up

responsibility to them next time).

On my own future layout, I would like to have a freight agent position who

will actually confiscate empties and assign them to ladings. For this,

we'll simply provide him or her with a stack of waybills (again equal to

the number of movements we want to generate) before each session. In this

way, it will be more obvious that the empty car movements are generated by

the industries.

With this system, we'll pull the waybill from each car-card when the cycles

are complete, leaving the car to be routed based on the instructions

written on the car-card itself. If needed for lading at an industry, the

agent will simply insert the new waybill and that will send the car on its

way.

Tony Koester described a variation on this method of generating empty car

movement in the second of his articles on the subject (Model Railroader,

March 1994). Tony's method uses special 2-cycle waybills tucked in front of

the original waybill, but I plan to simply remove the original waybill.

regards,

Byron



Byron Henderson

San Jose, CA

Editor, Layout Design Journal

Layout Design Special Interest Group

www.ldsig.org







----------------------------

#7789 Jan 26, 2000

I used (and will continue to use when my new layout is built) a large pool

of bills of lading, enough for a week's worth of movements or more. I drew

a certain number before each operating day and added them to any remaining

unfilled car requests. The number drawn should be enough to result in the

desired number of car moves per operating session, but not so much as to

clog the layout or result in a constantly growing number of unfilled car

requests. To replicate the gradual increase in originating traffic through

the work week and a drop-off on the weekends, I pulled more cards on

Wednesdays, Thursdays, or Fridays than on Mondays or Tuesdays. Also, I drew

significantly fewer cards on Sundays. As the loads were delivered, the

bills of lading went back into the box to be mixed around before more cards

were drawn.

I used this system for intermodal loads as well, one bill of lading for

each trailer or container. The bill of lading would specify trailer or

container, and size of container, for intermodal loads. Since I used

regular paper rather than card or laminated paper, I found I could easily

fit all the slips for my 5-platform stack car into a single car card.

If anyone is interested, I can scan in one of my car cards with a bill of

lading. I haven't seen anyone else use cards quite like these, but I found

them to work well.

Erik Langeland

---Links-Are-Forbidden--- d



----------------------------

#7814 Jan 26, 2000

>What methods do others use to get the cars moving?

>>Random picking? traffic cards? dart boards? -- Peter Bowers

_______________________

I'm not sure I fully understand the question, but I believe you're

missing the main point about how car cards and waybills work.

If one had to pick waybills from some file to start a day, that

would make the system far too game-like, and I doubt that you'd

find many of us using it. Waybills should be closely tied to

specific industries, and cars should not suddenly become

loaded while they sit in a yard.

Let's start from scratch and see if this solves the problem: You

buy, say, an L&N boxcar. You then need to fill out the four parts

of the standard four-cycle waybill. Side 1 could route the car with

appliances to an East Coast destination such as Baltimore.

Let's assume your railroad is somewhere in between L'ville

and Bal'more, so this car would come out of west-end

staging on your railroad and run over it into east-end staging.

The second part of the waybill would route that car empty back

to the L&N. Cycle three could route it from Nashville to a freight

house on your railroad. Cycle four would route it back to the L&N,

either empty or with stuff from that freighthouse (doubtful).

By leaving cycle 2 as an empty movement, that allows your

yardmaster to capture the car to load it with lading that is headed

back toward or beyond the L&N. (It can't go to Maine or Minneapolis,

in other words.) That is done by giving the yardmaster a stack of

empty-car orders as the day begins, and he or she has to look

for empties to fill those orders. The empty-car orders are placed

in front of the regular waybill to route the car to the desired

industry for loading, and by flipping this form over between sessions,

a special waybill is revealed that routes the now-loaded car toward

the owning railroad (L&N). When the car has headed into west-end

staging, the special waybill is removed and returned to the yardmaster

to cause another empty to be positioned for loaded. The original

waybill is then cycled, heading the car east to Bal'more again.

The repetitive nature of this movement occurs over many sessions

and hence weeks or months and is therefore essentially invisible.

Besides, a lot of cars were in assigned service and Ping-Ponged

back and forth between two specific sites.

That help? If not, please be more specific as to what still

confuses you. But do not assume that there is some sort of

roulette-wheel type of action going on here, as that would

cause me to walk away from the system with all possible haste.

Tony







----------------------------

#7818 Jan 26, 2000

From: PBowers 57era@...>

>

> Being a fan of car cards for 35 years, I have read a lot of articles on

> them over that time. One area that seems to be lacking though is how the

> daily car cards are generated. Do you pick one, five....ten? Everybody

> seems to leave this alone.

We use a homemade, 2-sided bill of lading using a ratio of eight bills for

each industry spot. The A side of the bill is a request for empty and the B

side is the load to be shipped. When the load is delivered, the bill is

removed from the car card, revealing the "empty return to..." instructions.

Between sessions, the freight agent draws new bills and tries to match them

to appropriate unassigned empties. The number drawn is based on the

railroad's traffic. The method I use for determining how many to draw is as

follows.

Set the railroad up by drawing bills for the number of cars you want on each

train and run all the trains. If you are using the Setout, Hold, Pickup

card box system, put all the cards in Hold and do the whole things again,

placing the cards in Setout.

Begin restaging cards by moving the Hold cards to Pickup and the Setout

cards to Hold. Take the cards from Pickup and look at the bills. For

A-sided bills, turn them over. For B-sided bills, remove the bill making

the car an unassigned empty.

Draw bills numbering about 1/4 of the industry spots on your railroad.

Match them to unassigned empties. If you find matches for all of them, draw

a few more waybills, keeping track of how many you drew. Match them to

unassigned empties. Repeat this draw and match until you a have a few bills

you cannot match. Put the unmatched bills back for future draws. The total

number you drew is about the number you should draw every session after

that. Your goal is to always have a few cars with no bills and a few bills

with no cars.

A car in captive service gets both sides if its bill labeled A so it always

gets turned since only bills showing the B side are removed. This system

creates the random car movements we like while allowing for repetitive

traffic.

Linda Sand







----------------------------

#7819 Jan 26, 2000

I disagree with Tony. While model railroading may not be a game, it is a

reenactment. Why should the freight agent position be eliminated from this

reenactment? Learning the rules of car confiscation can be as much fun as

learning the rules of time table and train order operation. Assigning bills

of lading to appropriate cars becomes another enhancement of the railroading

experience as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing "roulette-wheel" about

it.

What puzzles me is how Tony's waybill system can start with a load rather

than an empty car. How did that car get loaded? To be truly prototypical,

every car would start at the manufacturer being shipped to the owning

railroad but, at the least, it would start out empty.

Linda Sand

> From: "J Anthony Koester" jkoester@...>

>

>

>

> >>What methods do others use to get the cars moving?

> >>Random picking? traffic cards? dart boards? -- Peter Bowers

>

---------------

> I'm not sure I fully understand the question, but I believe you're

> missing the main point about how car cards and waybills work.

> If one had to pick waybills from some file to start a day, that

> would make the system far too game-like, and I doubt that you'd

> find many of us using it. Waybills should be closely tied to

> specific industries, and cars should not suddenly become

> loaded while they sit in a yard.

>

> Let's start from scratch and see if this solves the problem: You

> buy, say, an L&N boxcar. You then need to fill out the four parts

> of the standard four-cycle waybill. Side 1 could route the car with

> appliances to an East Coast destination such as Baltimore.

> Let's assume your railroad is somewhere in between L'ville

> and Bal'more, so this car would come out of west-end

> staging on your railroad and run over it into east-end staging.

>

> The second part of the waybill would route that car empty back

> to the L&N. Cycle three could route it from Nashville to a freight

> house on your railroad. Cycle four would route it back to the L&N,

> either empty or with stuff from that freighthouse (doubtful).

>

> By leaving cycle 2 as an empty movement, that allows your

> yardmaster to capture the car to load it with lading that is headed

> back toward or beyond the L&N. (It can't go to Maine or Minneapolis,

> in other words.) That is done by giving the yardmaster a stack of

> empty-car orders as the day begins, and he or she has to look

> for empties to fill those orders. The empty-car orders are placed

> in front of the regular waybill to route the car to the desired

> industry for loading, and by flipping this form over between sessions,

> a special waybill is revealed that routes the now-loaded car toward

> the owning railroad (L&N). When the car has headed into west-end

> staging, the special waybill is removed and returned to the yardmaster

> to cause another empty to be positioned for loaded. The original

> waybill is then cycled, heading the car east to Bal'more again.

>

> The repetitive nature of this movement occurs over many sessions

> and hence weeks or months and is therefore essentially invisible.

> Besides, a lot of cars were in assigned service and Ping-Ponged

> back and forth between two specific sites.

>

> That help? If not, please be more specific as to what still

> confuses you. But do not assume that there is some sort of

> roulette-wheel type of action going on here, as that would

> cause me to walk away from the system with all possible haste.

>

> Tony

>

>

>

---------------

>

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>

>







----------------------------

#7823 Jan 26, 2000

Linda and all,

At 12:02 PM 1/26/2000 -0600, D & L Sand wrote: >What puzzles me is how Tony's waybill system can start with a load rather

>than an empty car. How did that car get loaded? To be truly prototypical,

>every car would start at the manufacturer being shipped to the owning

>railroad but, at the least, it would start out empty.

There is no puzzle here in my mind. When you see a waybill cycle that has a

loaded car, it is a "snapshot" of a moment in time. The car moved empty to

the originating industry (on- or off-line) in an earlier cycle. Since the

cycles repeat, there is case of cars "starting with a load" just as there

is no case of "starting as an empty". Both loaded and empty cycles are

present on each waybill, but we see only one at a time. The car movement is

a continuum and we are viewing just one cycle at a time.

<< "Kung-fu" inspired digression begins ...

"But teacher, where is the car before it appears from staging with the load

of rice?"

"Grasshopper, why are you concerned with what was? Is it not what is now,

and the proper placement of that load at the hopper dump, that demands your

full presence now?"

... end of digression >>>>>>>>

In the same way, we view staging movements on-and-off-layout as just one

step in a much larger process. We didn't see what went before, we won't see

every step that comes after, yet we accept viewing this isolated movement

as completely prototypical.

Maybe I do not fully understand your concern.

Byron

Byron Henderson

San Jose, CA

Editor, Layout Design Journal

Layout Design Special Interest Group

www.ldsig.org



----------------------------

#7829 Jan 26, 2000

On Jan 26, 11:39am, D & L Sand wrote: > Subject: RE: [ldsig] Car Card daily startup

> From: "D & L Sand" sandsys@...>

>

> We use a homemade, 2-sided bill of lading using a ratio of eight billsfor > each industry spot. The A side of the bill is a request for empty andthe B > side is the load to be shipped. When the load is delivered, the bill is

> removed from the car card, revealing the "empty return to..."instructions.

Linda,

This is very much like the system we are currently implementing.

Here's a slight modification that may prove interesting:

Make the bills of lading SQUARE, not rectangular. Along the top

edge of the "request for an empty" side, write "Day 1". Along the left

edge, write "Day 2". On the bottom edge, write "Flip card". This

simulates a small industry that takes three days to load the car. Each

operating session, you either rotate the card clockwise in the pocket, or

you flip the card (if "Flip card" is showing).

Ditto for the "Full car to unload" side of the card.

By varying the number of days to load/unload each commodity, you

prevent having to move evey car from every siding every day, which is

unrealistic.

Yeah, I know that per-diem rates serve to encourage shippers to

load/unload cars as quickly as possible, but I know there are/were

industries that would gladly pay the per-diem rates in order to use the

cars as "temporary warehouse space".

BTW, the square cards are easy to make on your home computer. I

have found that file-folder type cardboard (available in color from the

Office Depot/Max) runs just fine through an HP Laserjet (YMMV).

Regards,

-Jeff

--

Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@...

Graphics Components Division

Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA

(916) 356-3533







----------------------------

#7832 Jan 26, 2000

What puzzles me is how Tony's waybill system can start with a load rather

>than an empty car. How did that car get loaded?

_______________________

A waybill can start (cycle 1) with a loaded car if that car is coming out

of staging and was therefore loaded off line. You could also move

that loaded car by hand into a yard track between sessions and

assume it came in yesterday as a load from somewhere. You could

even build a new car kit and plop that car in front of an industry between

sessions with the waybill cycled to have it picked up as a load at the

next session, but that's reaching for it.

The key point here is that you never load an empty except at an

"industry," be that off line (staging) or on line, so it's never a case of

an empty car sitting in a yard suddenly -- poof! -- becoming a load

because the yardmaster inserted a new waybill. That would be

improper and unrealistic.

Don't try to remember what I said, but rather think through how this

process actually works. Then use the four-cycle waybills or some

other system to simulate these movements. It's not so much a

game with rules to memorize but a simulation where logical

business decisions reign. Once you understand the basics, then

you can add "overlays" to ice cars, water livestock, send a car to

the RIP track, spot cars only during certain business hours, and so on.

Tony



----------------------------

#7835 Jan 26, 2000


reenactment. Why should the freight agent position be eliminated from this

reenactment? Learning the rules of car confiscation can be as much fun as

learning the rules of time table and train order operation. Assigning bills

of lading to appropriate cars becomes another enhancement of the railroading

experience as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing "roulette-wheel" about

it. -- Linda S. >>

____________________

I see nothing here that is in disagreement with my views, Linda. There is

nothing

about the four-cycle system that eliminates the freight agent, although only a

few employ such a person during a session. The freight agent could still decide

what cars are loaded and ready to be picked up by controlling the cycle of

the waybill. He or she could decide how many empties are needed and call

the YM to ensure that those cars are on the local. The rules of car confiscation

are

replicated with it, as yardmasters are encouraged to confiscate empties for

loading as long as the loaded car will be routed toward the car's home

road. They can tell this by flipping over the empty-car order form and seeing

where the special waybill on the reverse side will send the car once it is

loaded. And assigning bills of lading appropriate to the type of car is done

when the waybill is made out in the first place, assuming the same bill stays

with the car (which over four cycles is not really restrictive).

So where do we disagree?

Tony







----------------------------

#7836 Jan 26, 2000


train and run all the trains. If you are using the Setout, Hold, Pickup

card box system, put all the cards in Hold and do the whole things again,

placing the cards in Setout. -- Linda S. >>

_____________________

As long as I'm being cranky today -- I REALLY hate snow on roads -- I'd

like to mention that a primary design objective on the AM was to eliminate

the Set-out/Hold/Pick-up card boxes from the railroad. Those labels had

bugged me on the V&O and elsewhere, as they have no prototypical

analog. The apparent need for them seemed to result from trying to keep

a later local from picking up a car an earlier local had just dropped off.

We beat that problem by not having crews cycle waybills, which they typically

forget to do anyway. That way, a later crew arriving in town would find the

waybills still showing an inbound car for loading or unloading, as the

waybills would be cycled (by me) between sessions -- never in real time,

which again has no prototypical analog.

Linda uses a rather different approach in the way she uses the SO/H/PU

boxes, I gather, but I still feel that the lack of a prototypical

analog raises a question about adopting such practices. Linda will

surely have a very different view, so stay tuned. 8-)

Tony (Hey! The #@$% snow stopped!) the K.



----------------------------

#7843 Jan 26, 2000

Tony in reading through you comments I really think you hit on

what is probably really a common misconception on people new to

the hobby or those that don't railfan.

Railcars are seldom if EVER loaded in yards. Maybe MOW or a

team track or such, but that's it. Yards are just collection or

assembly point for cars from/to the area for trains. But the

picture in my mind came clear with your discription. Someone

standing at a yard billing out cars to locals and thru trains.

Granted someone with a real small layout might be forced to do

that, especially if they didn't want to handle their rolling

stock alot.

Otherwise everything should be staging to Industry or staging

to staging. With our fun being handling the 'in between. Good

point!

JonC.............SP Inyo Sub.

Mojave to Battle Mountain over Montgomery Pass

Serving the Owens Valley and the Potash Industry ----- Original Message -----







----------------------------

#7845 Jan 26, 2000

J Anthony Koester wrote: > The repetitive nature of this movement occurs over many sessions

> and hence weeks or months and is therefore essentially invisible.

> Besides, a lot of cars were in assigned service and Ping-Ponged

> back and forth between two specific sites.

Did the prototype local always take the same cars out on Tuesday and bring

them back on Thursday ? (The equivalent to the fixed model cycle.)

Part of the problem is that the prototype usually has many more cars in

assigned service, and some of those cars may be on the road at any given

time. Since it may take one or more days to load/unload them, they don't

all get moved together in the same train or get classified at the same

time. For our model railroads, the same half dozen cars often get picked-up

during one op-session and set out during the next session, and this does

indeed have the potential to get tiresome.

Dick



----------------------------

#7846 Jan 26, 2000

From: Byron Henderson bhenders@...>

>

> Linda and all,

>

> At 12:02 PM 1/26/2000 -0600, D & L Sand wrote:

> >What puzzles me is how Tony's waybill system can start with a load rather

> >than an empty car. How did that car get loaded? To be truly

> prototypical,

> >every car would start at the manufacturer being shipped to the owning

> >railroad but, at the least, it would start out empty.

>

> There is no puzzle here in my mind. When you see a waybill cycle

> that has a

> loaded car, it is a "snapshot" of a moment in time. The car moved empty to

> the originating industry (on- or off-line) in an earlier cycle. Since the

> cycles repeat, there is case of cars "starting with a load" just as there

> is no case of "starting as an empty". Both loaded and empty cycles are

> present on each waybill, but we see only one at a time. The car

> movement is

> a continuum and we are viewing just one cycle at a time.

Sorry, Byron. I was just taking a poke at Tony's "right way to do things"

and you got caught in the middle. My apologies.

Linda







----------------------------

#7848 Jan 26, 2000

At 04:19 PM 1/26/00 -0500, Dick Lord wrote: >time. For our model railroads, the same half dozen cars often get picked-up

>during one op-session and set out during the next session, and this does

>indeed have the potential to get tiresome.

That apsect could be alleviated if all cars of a given type/class/paint

scheme were *numbered identically*. That way, it would be less obvious

that there were actually a very limited number of cars of that type on the

layout. Every car would be thought of as a generic representative of the

entire pool of that type of car in service. Production costs would also go

down, because manufacturers would only have to supply *one road number* for

each railroad they painted a freight car for...

Randy (newbie engineer on the Redding Local at Rick's operating session on

Sunday, and had an absolute blast)

---------------

ProtoTrains // = = === == || == == == = || == == == = == =|

Rio Vista, CA, USA /-O==O------------o==o------------o==o-----------o==o-'

zephyru-@... ---Links-Are-Forbidden--- s



----------------------------

#7850 Jan 26, 2000

Dick Lord wrote: > Part of the problem is that the prototype usually has many more cars

> in assigned service, and some of those cars may be on the road at any

> given time. Since it may take one or more days to load/unload them,

> they don't all get moved together in the same train or get classified

> at the same time. For our model railroads, the same half dozen cars

> often get picked-up during one op-session and set out during the next

> session, and this does indeed have the potential to get tiresome.

Here is one area where a "mole" or car float operation seems superior

to on-layout staging. If the cars are removed from the layout, and if a

sufficient supply of cars is available, then routing cars to the car

removal point gets rid of many obvious repitition patterns.

Perhaps those who have layouts without car removal points might

care to comment on how (if) cars are routed off their layouts and

replaced by other cars.

Don

---------------

Now available from the La Mesa Club is a limited edition

IMWX kit for an SP box car used on Tehachapi. Details at:

---Links-Are-Forbidden--- -







----------------------------

#7853 Jan 26, 2000

So where do we disagree?

>

> Tony

You implied that drawing new bills meant they would be assigned by rolling

dice or making such unprototypical decisions as loading a car in a yard. I

disagree with that. A car would be confiscated from a yard only if it was

an unassigned empty that could be sent to a customer for loading on its way

to its home road.

I have no problem with railroad owners using the 4-sided waybill system to

keep them from having to do freight agent work every session. Dave and I,

however, enjoy being freight agents on our railroad so you "fluffed up my

fur" when you suggested we should not do so because it is not prototypical.

You are a powerful person in this hobby. Please, be careful about the

underlying messages that sneak by you sometimes. Not everyone will be as

quick to question them as I am.

Linda, who may never be invited to Tony's railroad again. :)



----------------------------

#7854 Jan 26, 2000

From: "J Anthony Koester" jkoester@...>

>

> As long as I'm being cranky today -- I REALLY hate snow on roads -- I'd

> like to mention that a primary design objective on the AM was to eliminate

> the Set-out/Hold/Pick-up card boxes from the railroad. Those labels had

> bugged me on the V&O and elsewhere, as they have no prototypical

> analog. The apparent need for them seemed to result from trying to keep

> a later local from picking up a car an earlier local had just dropped off.

> ...Linda will

> surely have a very different view, so stay tuned. 8-)

Actually, I agree with Tony on this one even though we have snow on the

roads here, too. The problem I have with the one box per track system Tony

prefers is that most railroad owners using it turn every waybill every

session so all cars move every time. That's not very prototypical either.

If the owner has to stand there going through every box deciding which ones

to turn and which not, he's doing freight agent work. :)

Linda







----------------------------

#7859 Jan 26, 2000

Don one way I've done this is to have more staging tracks than needed at a

destination. When the train arrives the power and cabin are cut off and the

car cards are placed on a hold hook. Depending on the amount of traffic to

that destination and the number of extra tracks available there could be Hold

1, Hold 2, Hold 3 etc. At the end of the session. Hold 3 or the oldest block

is reclassified and put back into the system. Hold 2 is moved to Hold 3 and

Hold 1 is moved to Hold 2. This way entire trains are taken out of the system

for a period of time. Inactive staging can also be used to adjust car flow

for seasonal traffic. Some place to put all the grain trains when the grain

isn't running or dumping a larger number of mineral ( ore ) trains on the rr

when the boats are being unloaded.

Ken McCorry



----------------------------

#7863 Jan 27, 2000

Tom (and sometimes I) usually only turn some waybills at the

larger industries. Leaving a few cars each time. Typically this

presents switching problems too. A bonus.

JonC.............SP Inyo Sub.

Mojave to Battle Mountain over Montgomery Pass

Serving the Owens Valley and the Potash Industry



----------------------------

#7869 Jan 26, 2000

The problem I have with the one box per track system Tony

> prefers is that most railroad owners using it turn every waybill every

> session so all cars move every time. That's not very prototypical either.

> If the owner has to stand there going through every box deciding whichones > to turn and which not, he's doing freight agent work. :)---------------

I have been mulling over a list system, where each job would be given a list

of which cars to move, pull, spot, etc. Cars not on the list are to be

returned to their original locations or tracks. That would make sure the

work was properly divvied up between the jobs on the railroad and would have

a prototypical flare to it. A train moving across the railroad doesn't

normally have any info on cars not directly associated with its own work.

The risk is a lot more paperwork.

Dave H.







----------------------------

#7879 Jan 27, 2000

Did the prototype local always take the same cars out on Tuesday and bring

> them back on Thursday ? (The equivalent to the fixed model cycle.)---------------

In rare circumstances, yes. There are some short cycle trains, mostly bulk

(grain, rock, wood chips) that cycle on a short turn around. But most cars

get loaded 2-3 times a month.

Dave H.



----------------------------

#7881 Jan 27, 2000

If the owner has to stand there going through every box deciding whichones > to turn and which not, he's doing freight agent work. :)---------------

Do I see a "time claim" being filed?

Dave H.



----------------------------

#7882 Jan 27, 2000

At 04:09 PM 01/26/2000 -0600, D & L Sand wrote: >Dave and I,

>however, enjoy being freight agents on our railroad so you "fluffed up my

>fur" when you suggested we should not do so because it is not prototypical.

I thought it _was_ prototypical. Somebody has to find cars to fill

customer empty car orders.

I had been trying to incorporate something similar into my in-design

operating system. I made up stickers for the four-cycle waybills that said

"Empty Car Order," "Loading," and "Unloading." I wanted the YM (freight

agent?) to have some control over what cars were sent with which trains.

Various visitors have told me that in the "heat of an operating session"

there won't be time to search the yard for an empty LP for the pulpwood

plant, and things would become bogged down. So I've abandoned that scheme

- at least for the time-being.

Maybe a slow fast-clock (say 2:1 or 3:1) would cool the "heat" of an

operating session, and give the YM a chance to do this work.

Or I could build an industrial switching layout and operate it at 1:1 time.

Personally, I find a lot to like about that idea.

Mike

------

Mike Dodd - Montpelier, VA

Modeling Virginian Railway, 1956

---Links-Are-Forbidden--- m







----------------------------

#7883 Jan 27, 2000

At 04:19 PM 01/26/2000 -0500, Dick Lord wrote: >For our model railroads, the same half dozen cars often get picked-up

>during one op-session and set out during the next session, and this does

>indeed have the potential to get tiresome.

I think that - properly set up - the four-cycle waybill can spread the

repetition out to where it a) isn't obvious, and b) isn't entirely

repetitive.

I spend a couple hours today fooling around with possible traffic patterns

for specific industries on my Virginian. It's interesting when I look at

the possibilities. Here are two patterns for a hopper car to the Narrows

power plant (staging yards are represented by A, B, and C):

1: Coal, A to plant; 2: MTY, plant to A

1: Coal, A to plant; 2: MTY, plant to A; 3: Coal, A to B; 4: MTY, B to A

The first example shows a simple two-cycle sequence, which would be

repetitive over two sessions. But the second doesn't route the car to the

plant on cycle 3 - it routes it directly to another staging yard. Four

operating sessions have to be run before the car comes from A to the power

plant again.

On my railroad I have _three_ staging yards that can handle merchandise

freights (the fourth is coal only). Trains can't run directly from B to C,

so they exchange cars at the Glen Lyn yard (or originate/terminate there).

If a train from B, for example, has a car for C, the YM may put that car on

a C-bound train right away, or it may sit in the yard until the next

session. This too reduces the repetitiveness.

Just some observations. I'm still discovering a lot about waybills....

Mike

------

Mike Dodd - Montpelier, VA

Modeling Virginian Railway, 1956

---Links-Are-Forbidden--- m







----------------------------

#7888 Jan 27, 2000

Linda is of course correct when she says no car begins its service as a

load. And none of Tony's cars did, nor did anyone else's. ALL of our

cars have been in service long before the time that our layouts model,

unless we simulate receiving a brand new string of cars. We are picking

up the action midstream, so to speak, so it seems to me that Linda's

point, while valid, is not significant. (Gee that sounds harsh. It

isn't meant that way.)

Verne



----------------------------

#7891 Jan 27, 2000

Various visitors have told me that in the "heat of an operating session"

> there won't be time to search the yard for an empty LP for the pulpwood

> plant, and things would become bogged down. So I've abandoned that scheme

> - at least for the time-being.=====================

Having a yardmaster or even switch crew pick out the cars to spot is

entirely prototypical with in a few guidelines. Normally to do that there

must be a pool of cars that the crew draws from. For example in Pine Bluff,

the cotton seed mill and both paper mills had pools of different types of

cars. The industries would tell the switch crews how many of each type of

boxcars (or whatever types required) were needed and the switch crews would

pick which cars to bring. Every so often the train master would specify the

block to get, just to keep the old cars off his reports.

Tank cars and covered hoppers tend to have specific commodities and are

either spot on arrival or ordered in by specific car number. A homogenous

product (a plant gets one grade of corn syrup) might be ordered in without

specifying car numbers.

In a smaller yard where the crew (or local supervisor) normally picks the

spotters might have to go looking through the yard to find that one empty

LP, if the customer wants one.

Besides, what are you going to do, tell the customer, sorry we're out of

racks, then have him drive by and see the one still in the yard? He won't

like that.

Dave H.







----------------------------

#7894 Jan 27, 2000

Linda is of course correct when she says no car begins its service as a

> load=================

Just to throw gas on the fire. Linda may be wrong if the car was not built

on line. If the car was built off line then its first move is as a load,

itself. It moves on an empty revenue waybill, and will show as a "load"

since it has revenue attached to it.

Dave H.



----------------------------

#7905 Jan 27, 2000

The problem I have with the one box per track system Tony

> prefers is that most railroad owners using it turn every waybill every

> session so all cars move every time. That's not very prototypical either.

> If the owner has to stand there going through every box deciding which

>ones to turn and which not, he's doing freight agent work. :)

---------------

It takes maybe five minutes to walk around the railroad, pick the

car cards/waybills out of the bill boxes, glance at them while

sizing up the situation on the railroad, cycle a few or a lot of them,

and put the cards back where they came from. This is done

between sessions and happily does indeed have a sense of

freight-agent duties to it, now that you mention it.

My choice of which waybills to cycle was made to avoid having each

car move every "day," and maybe to ensure that the local crew had

a bit of a challenge now and then -- a car to pull and put back ahead

of the new car they will have to spot. I never knew what would be on

the Local North, as it was built in real time at Sunrise, but the Local

South was blocked in north-end staging and I therefore knew what

was on it.

The challenge for the future (NKP) will be to use a system that is

equally flexible yet has more realistic waybills and offers the

two operator/freight agents a challenging real-time job at the

various towns along the railroad, just as Bill is doing with the

Maumee. He seems to have that coming along nicely.

Tony







----------------------------

#7923 Jan 27, 2000

From: Verne Alexander [mailto:crapmanverne@...]

>

> Linda is of course correct when she says no car begins its service as a

> load. And none of Tony's cars did, nor did anyone else's. ALL of our

> cars have been in service long before the time that our layouts model,

> unless we simulate receiving a brand new string of cars. We are picking

> up the action midstream, so to speak, so it seems to me that Linda's

> point, while valid, is not significant. (Gee that sounds harsh. It

> isn't meant that way.)

Verne is also right. I was just poking fun at Tony's occasional need to be

so prototypical that it borders on ridiculous. Of course, I'm guilty of

that too sometimes.

Linda (glad my house isn't glass) Sand



----------------------------

#7938 Jan 27, 2000

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:39:17

>To: PBowers 57era@...>

>From: Jacques and Linda Richard jacques.richard@...>

>Subject: Re: [ldsig] Car Card daily startup

>In-Reply-To: 3.0.3.16.20000123033911.30274830@...>

>

>At 03:39 AM 1/23/00, you wrote:

>>From: PBowers 57era@...>

>>

>>Being a fan of car cards for 35 years, I have read a lot of articles on

>>them over that time. One area that seems to be lacking though is how the

>>daily car cards are generated. Do you pick one, five....ten? Everybody

>>seems to leave this alone.

>>

>>In real life industries generate the carloadings. I can't remember seeing

>>this happen in any of the articles I have seen. Is letting the car cards

>>generate their own movements enough? I tend to feel that some method must

>>be developed to generate car movements.

>>

>>What methods do others use to get the cars moving? Random picking? traffic

>>cards? dart boards?

>>

>While my layout has not reached the operating stage, I have strongly beeninfluenced by an article in MR circa March 1971 which considered the

empties ordered by each industry. >

>Each MAJOR industry would generate a range of wanted cars each day

>Say the Eddy papermill at Espanola received 8-12 cars and shipped 10-15 Icould generate the days orders by rolling dice or drawing cards or whatever. >

>This would also be done for the remainder of the smaller industries as agroup and OCS as another group and overhead traffic etc.

So with 4-7 selections I have ordered the sessions new waybills

This allows me to finetune each major industry as opposed to just

determining, by whatever method, that "I need x new waybills for this session" >

>Anyone familiar with big industry knows that shipments can vary due tochanging markets, seasonal concerns and labor issues. >

>I want to be able to adjust a big industry without affecting the othershipments as could happen with some car forwarding systems >

>

Jacques Richard

Goderich ON

Great Lakes Western/ CPR Sudbury Division 1978

84 SVO, NMRA, IPMS-C, LDSIG, OPSIG, etc. etc...







----------------------------

#7939 Jan 28, 2000

In a message dated 1/26/00 8:56:21 PM Central Standard Time,

dhusman@... writes: > From: "dhusman" dhusman@...>

>

> > The problem I have with the one box per track system Tony

> > prefers is that most railroad owners using it turn every waybill every

> > session so all cars move every time. That's not very prototypical either. > > If the owner has to stand there going through every box deciding which

> ones

> > to turn and which not, he's doing freight agent work. :)

---------------

> I have been mulling over a list system, where each job would be given a list > of which cars to move, pull, spot, etc. Cars not on the list are to be

> returned to their original locations or tracks. That would make sure the

> work was properly divvied up between the jobs on the railroad and would have > a prototypical flare to it. A train moving across the railroad doesn't

> normally have any info on cars not directly associated with its own work.

>

> The risk is a lot more paperwork.

>

> Dave H.

>

>

On Bill Kirchmeyer's railroad, Two or more trains may switch the same town.

To tell the crew which cars to pick up, he places the OLG carcards for that

train into a folded piece of paper which is then labeled with the Trains ID.

It takes about two seconds for you to see which cars you are to pick up.

Bruce Notman

Minneapolis, MN



----------------------------

#7954 Jan 28, 2000

Besides, what are you going to do, tell the customer, sorry we're out of

>racks, then have him drive by and see the one still in the yard? He won't

>like that.

I remember a number of times when I was in Jacksonville, FL on a ship in the

mid-1960s and discharging was held up because the ACL said they didn't have

any gons available to take our load of steel. And the dock superintendent

_did_ drive by the yard sometimes to see what was really available (and it

didn't do his pretty short fuse much good if he saw some 50'ers sitting

there not doing anything!).

Ross Pollock

Mineral

Point, WI







----------------------------

#7988 Jan 28, 2000

Besides, what are you going to do, tell the customer, sorry we're out of

>racks, then have him drive by and see the one still in the yard? He won't

>like that.

__________________

It can get sticky even when you have empties. If two adjacent and competing

elevators asked for three empty XMs but when the local showed up they had

only five, they would give each two and haul one on down the line to

avoid a nasty conversation with one of the elevator managers. This is

based on Jim Boyd's actual experiences on the IC in Illinois.

Tony



----------------------------

#8457 Feb 7, 2000

>Perhaps those who have layouts without car removal points might

>>care to comment on how (if) cars are routed off their layouts and

>>replaced by other cars. -- Don

______________________

Just don't put bumpers on the end of your stub-ended staging tracks.

Tony (they're only Athearn XMs anyway) the K.