Messages From ldsig

 


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#77392 Nov 3, 2008

I'll take one more shot at baiting some of you guys who..might want to help me do this.

I need to get something running and playing trains (operating in a somewhat realistic fashion).

So let's try this, for the basic foot print... from Lynn Westcott's 101 Track..Plans, John Armstorns's Ouachita & Ozark RR. The basic loop is..on a chopped 4x8 turned into a 12" shelf donut.

Mainline:..(A) Single Track, (B) Single Track twice around either like the O&O or G&D, (C)..Double track mainline w/ a trailing..point crossover that..it can be used as a point to point single track, (D) Twice around point to point like A.C. Kalmbach describes building a RR in his book (I don't remember what he called it.)

Switching Area: (A) Timesaver, (B)..Silver Valley Model RR Club Mid_Eastern Regional Contest Switching Problem as published in Leslie Turner White's book on Model Railroading, (C) Something else (like what)?

Definitely..will have staging, say for six eight foot trains including..locomotives and cabin.

Considering using the whole donut as a helix up to another shelf for a branch or opposite end terminal.

Why is any of this interesting or not interesting?

PS It has to be portable.

So, anyone want to play?

..Best Regards, David

Poem: "The Soldier" ---Links-Are-Forbidden--- give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other. Reinhold Niebuhr Author

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From: Mike Davison thognar@...>

To: ldsig@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2008 8:02:06 AM

Subject: Re: [ldsig] Operating on a multi-operator layout.

David,

It would be quite difficult to really appreciate, let alone design, an

operationally interesting layout without having operated on a few. The

more the better, really, since most of us learn from examples. One way

you could accomplish this is to join the Operations SIG and watch for

operations opportunities. There are many people with larger,

operations-oriented layouts that will, from time to time, offer

operating sessions for inexperienced people. The Layout Design SIG

publication and meeting during the annual NMRA convention are also

both useful tools for learning about layouts designed for operations

and for connecting with others that find that focus interesting.

Regards,

Mike Davison







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#77393 Nov 3, 2008

Designing an operationally interesting layout ought to

take you some time...measured in months not days.

Studying what has been done by various modelers is

useful. Studying only one model has its limitations.

I guess I would advise you to study and learn from

John Armstrong...as a starter. If you understand

his view of layout design, you'll be well on your way.

D Richardson

Tucson

**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot

5 Travel Deals!

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#77397 Nov 3, 2008

David,

I, and many others, don't have a copy of the specific book you mention

so we can't comment on that plan. I suggest getting a copy of Track

Planning for Realistic Operation, by John Armstrong. It's not a track

plan book, in that you wont find the perfect plan in it, but rather a

book about layout design, track planning if you will, that will help

you determine what fits your needs and desires.

It is common to create a list of constraints and desires when one

starts planning a model railroad. This list is frequently called

'givens and druthers,' a name, I believe that was coined by Mr

Armstrong. Grab his book and get a more complete explanation of how to

go about creating this list. Basically, you need to go through the

process of determining what motivates you (type of equipment, scale,

location, prototype, etc) and what limitations you have (room size,

financial, personal abilities, etc).

Asking this group to decide for you things like a single or double

track mainline is asking us to decide whether you prefer pizza or

cheeseburgers. We can pick one, but you may not like the results.

Regards,

Mike Davison







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#77400 Nov 3, 2008

Thanks Mike,

I have copies of the following J.Armstrong books and have read most of each of them.

-Track Planning for realistic..operation.

- Creative Model Railroad Design

- 20 Custom Designed Track Plans

- The Classic Layout Designs of John Armstrong.

I have both Small, Smart & Practical and Mid-sized and Manageable Track Plans by Iain Rice.

I have read A.C. Kalmbach's spiral bound books so many times it fell apart and I had to track down another copy on ebay.

Leslie Turner White's book, "Scale Model Railroading" was published by Thomas Nelson in 1964, LoC# 64-24625. Basically you have five cars in different spots, one in a train with the locomotive and caboose. You start with..the five cars in their starting position and end with them in five different positions. You are supposed to complete the moves in..under 5 minutes and 29 moves or less. I think either this or the timesaver would make a nice little industrial complex that can keep someone busy for a little while.

I'm not looking for anyone to tell me what to do, but I am looking for their opinions and why. I'm..sure there is tons of experiance out there and I'm trying to tap it besides reading a book. After getting something up and running and practicing all aspects of the hobby for a couple of years, maybe less, I'll..hopefully know what I like and can push in that direction.

I..definitely would like something that I can operate by myself and/or up to five or six people.

..Best Regards, David

---------------

From: Mike Davi son thognar@...>

To: ldsig@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 7:11:17 AM

Subject: Re: [ldsig] Help on designing an operationally interesting layout...???

David,

I, and many others, don't have a copy of the specific book you mention

so we can't comment on that plan. I suggest getting a copy of Track

Planning for Realistic Operation, by John Armstrong. It's not a track

plan book, in that you wont find the perfect plan in it, but rather a

book about layout design, track planning if you will, that will help

you determine what fits your needs and desires.

It is common to create a list of constraints and desires when one

starts planning a model railroad. This list is frequently called

'givens and druthers,' a name, I believe that was coined by Mr

Armstrong. Grab his book and get a more complete explanation of how to

go about creating this list. Basically, you need to go through the

process of determining what motivates you (type of equipment, scale,

location, prototype, etc) and what limitations you have (room size,

financial, personal abilities, etc).

Asking this group to decide for you things like a single or double

track mainline is asking us to decide whether you prefer pizza or

cheeseburgers. We can pick one, but you may not like the results.

Regards,

Mike Davison







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#77402 Nov 3, 2008

Ok, David, so you have some good layout design books. Excellent. Now

you're looking for some practical experience from others. It sounds

like you'd like to hear why others made the layout design choices that

they did. How those choices worked out, etc. Right?

My first observation is that this is a complex question and one that

can be answered by monitoring this mailing list over a long period.

You'll have to filter out the arguments over trivial, subjective

topics, but there have been some incredible discussions by talented

people on this mailing list. (Sadly, many have left because of all the

arguments over trivial, subjective topics).

My second observation is that there is no replacement for actually

building and operating. If I tell you I enjoy industrial switching

because it's a fun puzzle to solve. That doesn't really help you

decide if you like industrial switching. You really need to try

various operating situations and try building various layout

types/styles to see what you enjoy. Viewing and operating other

layouts helps a great deal.

So... again, it's really back to us telling you why pizza is

better/worse than burgers.

But, ok, to play along a bit, I have observed that I really like

layouts that allow long runs and support TT&TO operations. Covering

'long' distances is hard with a model railroad, however since we

generally don't have enough room. I love industrial switching. Love

it. Lots of big, grimy industries with urban canyons and all those

dangerous places that are behind fences. Makes me want to spit 'n

swear! Switching industrial areas involves some great puzzle solving

exercises, which is incredibly fun to me. I enjoy working yards if I

can do so in a realistic way. Cherry-picking a yard from a helicopter

is not so much fun for me, but working a yard prototypically is a

blast. So..... my opinion is that it's all fun if you pay attention

to how the real railroads operate and, at least in part, duplicate the

procedures. Your mileage may vary. Objects appear smaller in mirrors.

Batteries not included.

Mike







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#77403 Nov 3, 2008

--- In ldsig@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Davison" thognar@...> wrote: > My second observation is that there is no replacement for actually

> building and operating. If I tell you I enjoy industrial switching

> because it's a fun puzzle to solve. That doesn't really help you

> decide if you like industrial switching. You really need to try

> various operating situations and try building various layout

> types/styles to see what you enjoy. Viewing and operating other

> layouts helps a great deal.

>

> So... again, it's really back to us telling you why pizza is

> better/worse than burgers.

>

> Mike

>I agree with Mike.

Designing a layout involves a lot of trade-offs and there is no

"one-size fits all" layout design philosophy. There are, however, some

guidelines and rules-of-thumb - depending on the subject area.

Then there's also some observations those of us who are into realistic

operation have seen that apply to track planning. Mike lists some

TT&TO observations. Other methods of train dispatching - Track

Warrants, CTC have similar observations that can be made.

For instance, I find I prefer at least 1.5 train lengths between

towns, with 2 train lengths between towns ideal. Otherwise, when

switching, you can find you've got the locos in one town and the

caboose in another town - which certainly feels and looks odd.

There's also the prototype and what it does as well. For example, I

have two towns on my layout Oakland, OR and Sutherlin, OR, that have

just a few car lengths between towns - so it's very easy to have parts

of your train in both towns when switching.

In the case of the prototype, however, these two towns are about half

a mile apart, so even the prototype would easily have the locos in one

town and the caboose in the other on a 100 car train. So my model that

has selectively compressed that half mile down to a few hundred scale

feet doesn't feel all that out of place.

But in general, having towns more than one train length apart is more

typical and improves the realism of the layout. What this means to

layout designers is that you should model fewer towns with more

distance between them for running.

--Joe Fugate

---Links-Are-Forbidden--- m






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